Episode 3: Fired by Text, Hired by AI

Theresa and Anthony unpack why every HR conversation right now seems to be either 100% AI or nothing, and what that leaves out. They dig into the wave of AI-justified layoffs at Snap, Oracle, Block, and Allbirds, the Gen Z backlash showing up as employees refuse to train their own replacements, and where the unions are in all of it. Theresa makes the case for a workforce that's part W2, part 1099, part agent, and what that means for benefits, loyalty, and accountability. Anthony shares the AI layoff tracker he vibe-coded for himself and asks whether employees are starting to keep receipts on the companies doing this. They close with a pivot for next time: shifting the lens from who's getting it wrong to who's getting it right.

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:01

Welcome to the Breaking News. I'm Teresa Festenstein here with my co-host Anthony Minesto. We've spent our careers in HR people leadership, and each week we pull apart what is breaking in the news and talk about what it actually means for the teams doing the work. We're so happy you're here. Trying a new tool, always thinking about the best thing for the workplace. Welcome to Breaking Views, our bi-weekly conversation about things in the news that impact HR, AI, all sorts of things, the future of work with my good friend Anthony Ernesto. Hello, Anthony. How are you today?

SPEAKER_00 0:43

I am doing wonderful. It is about 70 degrees and sunny. We are in full springtime here in New York. Well, I guess it's a little touch of summer in New York, but uh absolutely love it. So nice to go outside, get the sun. Yeah, yeah, I'm excited. Not the city proper. No reason to be in subways at 70 degrees and smelling all that good New York. Uh, it's all good. I like being in the country.

SPEAKER_01 1:12

Well, yesterday, this week, it's been in the 90s in the city. So uh, but it's also still too early. Like the frost hasn't depleted enough for the scent to actually come out in full.

SPEAKER_00 1:24

True.

SPEAKER_01 1:25

There's always that first warm weekend of the spring that is the best time to be in New York City, Chicago, whatever it is. Um, yeah, I'm in the suburbs too, so that we don't have that, but we have had our windows open all week and and I'm excited for 70s, 80s. It's nice.

SPEAKER_00 1:42

Yes, it's my favorite that one day we get of spring now. It's so wonderful.

SPEAKER_01 1:47

Yeah, totally, totally agree. So, what's in your uh what's in your news feed today?

SPEAKER_00 1:54

Yeah, so much going on today. I I um it actually shifted from yesterday. I actually was looking at it yesterday, and the first thing that was in my feed yesterday is in an AI market, here are the jobs college grads are landing, right? So this this listen, if we don't say AI, the gods and the robots will come after us. So there you go. AI has been said. Um, I think people are sick of it. I think we talked about this last time, but like it transformed people like, oh, enough with AI. But it's interesting to see, you know, the this thing that we found out when talking about Gen Z specifically is this disgust around AI, right? And and it's so funny. Like, there is I was I was talking to a bunch of people, um, customers, prospects, just generally networking with folks and just getting an understanding of their maturity around where they are. And there are, you know, there are edge cases where folks are, and you know this more than everybody, you're doing training, you're talking to folks too. Most folks are not even started. Like they're they're maybe they're just getting chat GPT licenses, things like that. And then there are a few edge cases that are really diving into AI. So there's still an incredible white space here around AI, but it there's already backlash. Like you see this generation that's uh Gen Z that is anti-AI. And and someone's asked me, like, why do you think that's the case? I'm like, every every every headline is jobs are being eliminated, and these folks are coming into the workforce. So, you know, like I I um I I have a cartoon. I've been starting to think about pushing out cartoons, AI generated, of course, because I don't draw. Um, but a bunch of cartoons around this messaging. And I have one uh where it's you know a boss saying, Hey, you know, employee, why aren't you you know using AI? And the employee's reading a newspaper, which is ironic because no one reads newspapers anymore. But uh on the headline it goes, you know, Acme Co. Um, you know, fires 50% of their staff, and it's like this like of course why people fight, flight, or freeze, neuroscience. Like your every headline is my job is getting eliminated to AI, and you're like, why aren't you using AI? Because I'm giving my job away. Like, what like this is wild what's happening, and and then you read about all birds, like the shoe company. I have all birds, I was I loved all birds, and they're they're becoming an AI company.

SPEAKER_01 4:27

I'm like so many good memes about that and like good videos of like crazy.

SPEAKER_00 4:32

I just changed myself. I'm now an AI, I I now I'm worth a billion dollars. I uh Anthony.ai is what you're looking at today.

SPEAKER_01 4:41

Yeah, it's hard for me to say everybody's AI when I do have it right behind me, but I think that's your company, like, yeah, that you started that. But I think there's there's there's so much to unpack in what you just said and thinking about my own students. I just got off of two calls. I have I teach uh I'm an adjunct, I teach AI and business and HR management. For those that don't know, I've just had two like office hours with students, and they're two brilliant women who are leaning into AI in a really magical way. And they're they're trying to figure out like I can't imagine being a student getting ready to graduate college, which is why I shared that article with all of my students that you shared with me before about you know the roles of uh the future grads and AI in an AI market. Um, what are the jobs that grads are landing? And I actually put it up here as well. Uh I have it pulled up on my own screen, which maybe I'll figure out a real fancy way to show it in the video. Yeah, right. But I I I just think it's really it's very much a difficult space. I I think there we're the first piece of your message around it's our our conversation and our headlines are saturated with AI. And from the context of, you know, we were just both at Transform, there doesn't seem to be a middle ground. It's like, you know, when I started working, started People Power AI in 2020, early 23, I'm three years in now. There was very little, with the exception of like if you were looking for conversation about AI, right? It was starting to percolate, it was starting to come up. Now and by the way, at Transform in 2023, which I attended, I couldn't get on the stage. Nobody, there was no stage talking about AI. So I had my own thing in a portico in the basement. Like I created my own thing. Now fast forward two years really in the process or three years, and there was almost no session that didn't have AI. So it's like it's like all or nothing. And there's no ground of like, where's the content around uh managing grief and loss in a unique way for employees? Where was the conversation about 51% of our population are female that are and a hard huge proportion of those are getting ready to go through or in menopause? How do we support that team?

SPEAKER_00 7:19

Well, it could be like how how you know, uh, how AI can support women in menopause?

SPEAKER_01 7:25

But that wasn't even there, that would have been something I would have been excited about. And I think there is this uh I there's a interesting dynamic around the conversation, and then at the same time, to your point, the 40% of our population like where is the expectation of any level of loyalty to a workplace now? It's there's no zero in the news.

SPEAKER_00 7:51

Snap just announced they're laying off people because of AI. Like again, you're you're a CEO. I it's just it's it's so frustrating to me because there, you know, and and again, this is and and I and I understand the there's short-term thinking in here, and that's because the structure of the way everyone is incentivized these days, especially if you're a public company, is short-term gains. So Snap lays off people, stock pops, they win, right? The the executives win, whoever has stock ownership there wins, the CEO wins, the board wins, whatever. But at the end of the day, and I have another cartoon that's coming out, or I think maybe I posted it. No, I did post it recently, was this is a two-sided marketplace. So when you fire all the people, by the way, all these agents that you're creating, and there's so much like, hey, I've eliminated my entire you know, group of employees, and now I have AI agents that support me, and it's like, okay, great. None of those agents consume, they do not buy shit. And so now in the long term, if no one's buying shit because no one's working, and I'm like beating this drum. I'm like, stop glorifying this, stop glory. Like, listen, I get it. You want to reduce headcount, um, and it's a business objective.

SPEAKER_01 9:12

Do you think it's about who's doing the glorification? Because I don't I I don't think it's I it's a communication team.

SPEAKER_00 9:20

Like Snap doesn't Snap doesn't just go, hey, we fired people. You built you know, you've run rifts before, reductions in forces. There is a communication method, especially, you know, when you're a company large size, you also have warrant requirements, so you do have to publicly let people know that you're firing people. So there are legal requirements, but you can just say, hey, we're laying off people. You don't have to say we're laying off people because of AI. And listen, the media loves that story. And and and again, ironically, you know, uh if you're eliminating people, I mean, media is driven by people, at least at this point. Um, it's you know, and and and there is, there are, you know, like you see block that, you know, like the the Dorsey being like, yeah, we're laying off people and it's AI. Like, like that, whether it's I feel like it's glorified, maybe the media is doing a little bit of that. But you could just be like, hey, we're laying off people. You don't you don't have to say it's because of AI.

SPEAKER_01 10:18

No, because well, we talked about this last time, Anthony. And I think the question that we have to ask is number one, is it really about AI or is it really about overhiring and us not wanting to admit that that we've been paying for four years uh inflated salaries for people that we really didn't need because we were in a competitive market then and we're afraid we wouldn't have the manpower to or human power to maintain our business. And now we're just at this place where it's a convenient excuse, which I think is for many of them. Because I can tell you there are, and you know this, there are so many examples of companies over the past three years that have said, hey, we're going to move to just AI um customer service, and something tragic happens, and all of a sudden we're hiring people again because there's nobody in the company that understands like a a mass, isn't that a wild mismanagement of a company?

SPEAKER_00 11:15

So why aren't we like, okay, and maybe that maybe you're right, maybe they're using the cover of AI one, it gives them credit that you know, in you know, the message to the market is like, hey, hey, we're going AI, and and like all birds going to allbirds.ai, you know, their value pops. Maybe that is a thing and they're using it as air cover, and it gets a dual benefit. It also it it hides the fact that this company that you overhired on was mismanaged. Like, like, so why where's the accountability? Uh and that stems from boards to CEOs. Like the HR people will are following the instructions of the leadership, right? Hey, we need to hire a ton of people. Like, you mismanage this company, you should be fired. Like, if I mismanage to the the material nature that we're talking about, like you say 10, 20 of staff. So you're telling me we overhired by 20, and you're still the CEO of the company? Like, isn't that gross mismanagement?

SPEAKER_01 12:17

In my view, like square, take square, absolutely right square, 40% gone or blocked, 40% gone. Like we that is almost, I wonder if there's a piece of that conversation that was like sweet relief. If we didn't have AI as the as the reasoning, what would the conversation be? Because if I'm a CEO, I'm thinking of self-preservation, I'm looking at our numbers, I'm looking at our business, and I'm also looking at the conversation that's happening that says AI agents can do this, AI agents can do that, and I'm gonna go to my board and say, hey, you know, all these valuable people that we hired really support the business. However, now things have changed so we can use this as a like it's self-preservation. I don't think most people that have any sense of self-preservation are gonna stand up and say it was my fault, I did it, we overhired, and I'm gonna go ahead and leave or sacrifice myself for the betterment of the business because clearly I'm not the right person to run this ship.

SPEAKER_00 13:32

Like it's I think yeah, I mean, I I don't see that happening, and it's interesting, like all this AI replacement. Like, I'm you know, how many AI agents for CEOs can we like if you think about an incredible opportunity to save money? Um, it's you know, at the CEO level, like, can't we have AI agents replacing CEOs? Why isn't that being discussed, right? So, and I'm not suggesting that by well, yeah, I am suggesting that. Um it just like listen, the the secret here is that a lot of these, especially with block, and I know for certain because I literally just googled it, they have dual class shareholders. So these folks can't leave. You know, it's almost like the you know, uh Bronx tale when when the bikers go into the bar, uh the mafia bar, and they're like making, you know, disruption and they lock the door, and it's like, no, you can't leave. Um in a different way. Like these folks will never, you know, Zuckerberg, same thing. Like you they have these dual-class share structures where they they have more power than the boards. So even if they grossly mismanage these companies, it's hard to really, really, really exit them. So it's just interesting to me. Like, and outside of that structure where that doesn't happen, what that's gross mismanagement of a company from a even from a financial perspective. And and the thing I've been thinking about a lot, you know, we're seeing a lot of AI layoffs in the mostly in the information services sector, right? Like what the digital work that you and I usually come from. Not so much in manufacturing just yet, but I think that will be an evolution at some point with robotics. We're already seeing with Amazon. Where are the unions? Like where, like at what point? Now we're still record unemployment, so that's not a driver just yet. And we're starting to see maybe um job openings actually um, or actually jobless claims be decrease, which is one of the headlines here. So there isn't this mass layoff and this mass unemployment, and maybe it has to get to that. But where are the unions? Like, why I if I was a union president, I'd be going into tech companies and I'd be like, hey, you folks are getting screwed here. Like you're you're you're basically digitizing all your work, training all these agents to take your jobs. Like, where are the unions on any of this? Like, none. I don't know. It's just weird to me. I've been thinking a lot about that lately as a balance of power, frankly.

SPEAKER_01 16:02

Yeah, well, it also goes that it goes back to that like all or nothing mentality, right? Like this, we're either going to do a full uh whether it's a conference or it's a company doing a full sweep where there's not a sense of well, let me qualify. I I think probably, Anthony, the stories that we're talking about are the exception, not the rule. Like if you take 10 companies that have announced XYZ out of the billions of companies out there, most companies are probably taking a more measured, balanced approach, more conservative in terms of sweeping changes. And those maybe there are the companies that don't have some, you know, huge private equity or VC managing them and pushing them for whatever huge returns they're being valued at valued at, right? Like there's there's a lot of that in the volatile um, you know, uh, you know, SaaS space, right?

SPEAKER_00 17:04

Right.

SPEAKER_01 17:05

One of the things I'm I want to pivot if we can talk about something else. One of her mutual great friends, Amanda Halley, posted something today. I'm gonna share it with the screen because I'm gonna get here.

SPEAKER_00 17:17

Drum roll.

SPEAKER_01 17:19

Right? Drum roll. I don't even know if you can see it. Can you see it?

SPEAKER_00 17:23

I can. Yes.

SPEAKER_01 17:24

So today, uh, or she posted this today that LinkedIn News shared this update, speaking of college grads and new roles, that number five, which has really never been on this list before, is HR operations specialist as top roles for new grads. I'm curious what your take on that is. And as an individual working within a company that is focused on technology and growth, does this align at all with what you're seeing? Or where is your current company, 15.5, what what is their hiring strategy around technology, HR? What does that look like?

SPEAKER_00 18:10

Yeah, I mean, I I could talk more from a customer perspective on this. It's interesting. Like I am surprised. And uh well, actually, I'm not. Well, the recruiting one is a surprise to me, and and you actually have great pushback there. And I and I appreciate the pushback because it could be this technological or technology or SaaS echo chamber that I'm sitting in and I'm getting fed all of this information. And you're right, there are, you know, the US comp um comprises of mostly sort of mid or small businesses. Like that's the majority of what really powers our economy. And you're not seeing a lot of that, um, the AI disruption. Um, and I think again, could be an opportunity there to really help those those smaller companies, but you're absolutely right. This might be just an echo chamber of what I'm seeing consistently. And and you know, whether it's block or snap, both technology companies. So you're onto something there that, like, hey, let's let's take a breather here, Anthony. Step back, stop unionizing. I'm already picketing. I'm gonna go picket in front of my own house.

SPEAKER_01 19:12

Like, get rid of this kind of HR, the HR leader of 20 years ago in my head is just like frizzling away with like this unions. Now's a picket. My mindset today.

SPEAKER_00 19:24

Yeah, yeah. I remember, you know.

SPEAKER_01 19:27

But their protections we didn't necessarily, I mean, think about that transformation, right? As a professor of HR management, where employees needed the protections of an organization because the employers themselves didn't find it commercially viable to support their employees. And then we went into an age of now we're gonna support uh the future retirement funds through pensions, and we're going to then it grew, and now we're doing a lot more for the health and wellness of our employees. We're we're protecting them more. And it just feels like, in some ways, you know, that what I came into the workforce with was an expectation, not necessarily that I was going to stay with the same company. My dad worked for General Motors his whole life, that I was gonna have that same experience, but that no matter where I went, there was a level of transference of those protections. So I could take that retirement and push that into another company. And that next company, maybe they gave me better benefits, better on uh time off, more balance. And now it's just like this let's work harder. And by the way, there's absolutely no fucking security in a job anymore. I was just talking about the fact that I have this perspective that in the next five years, we are going to see a significant shift in maybe not, maybe not only the big companies, but maybe it's more 70, 65% of the population. Companies are going to be more skill-based hiring, less focused on, you know, the last job that you did and the last four jobs and what's on a job description. And they're also going to be hiring more fractional. So maybe our workplace looks like 50% W-2s and 20% 1099s, and you know, X 30 to 60% as agents. And like, how does a young person or somebody who's in the workforce now start to prepare themselves for that? And part of that, I think, is finding some element of your own company, freelancing, finding multi stream revenues so that we're not reliant on the employer as our everything. And that that leads to a lot, right? Like, what about benefits and the impact of that? But I just think like a place where you can have some sense of if I worked for Oracle for 30 fucking Years and I get an email in the morning or a text message that says, Hey, you're no longer employed, like that's devastation. And I can't in my right mind understand how that it that process was at all vetted by somebody who gave a crap about humans and the way that they have committed their lives to organizations. It just doesn't exist anymore.

SPEAKER_00 22:24

Yeah, I mean, I think there's the sh when we joined the workforce, listen, the the the leverage was on the employer side, no doubt, when I came into the workforce. And usually, you know, and this is one of the things I studied with my book on Gen Z was the customs that they had come into. Like our customs, or at least mine, in a generalization, was that you get what you get and you don't get upset like that. And also like media was an impact back then, and you would see Michael J. Fox go from the mail room to like the CEO's office in one, you know, one movie, um, that kind of stuff, or you know, Tom Hanks, you know, owning a toy company, whatever, and big um like so. There was always this like upward trajectory that you know, if you worked hard and you did certain things and got lucky, you'd become CEO, and that was always a goal. But you're right. I mean, I think historically, especially when I researched for the Gen Z project, it was, you know, companies were very community-based. So you were employed in the same place where you lived, and it was very family-oriented. And we've absolutely, I think it was the 70s or maybe late 60s, early 70s, when we went to this short-term reporting structure around companies, and people were incentivized for short-term gains, things like that. It changed everything. And listen, again, to your point, there are companies that think of that human connection. And there's a great um, there's a company, um Rational Capital, that has done research that shown seven dynamics of human capital actually create alpha in business results. So they've actually connected human capital to business results, which which is what we've been trying to do in HR for 30 years, as far as I'm concerned. Like, hey, everything I do here will have a strong business impact. So I I it's interesting, like we're pendulum, shifting back to a place where it's more of an employer leverage market, like when we joined, but really thinking about like what is this? And and your point is right, it's this new workforce that is full-time employees, W-2, agents, AI, like it's this combination of all these things. And and I think that's ultimately where we're gonna land. But it's still, you know, there's going to be sacrifices that happen, like these kind of layoffs, like Oracle. And the question I have is like, do those have, and could we tie those, um, those ill, you know, uh workflows or the processes that aren't human uh first, is that going to impact their business? Is Oracle going to see a downgrade in their business because they really didn't, they really weren't thoughtful around the human capital aspect? And jury's out on that just yet. But if you if you talk to the folks at Irrational Capital, it's like you have to do all these human capital, you know, listen, you can still and we've seen, you know, Starlink and and Tesla and all these companies, like they're they're traditionally not, you know. I I know somebody that worked for SpaceX as as their head of HR, and like Elon Musk would never come to HR meetings, had saw zero value in the HR function, um, but still wildly successful, right? Um, so you know, there are going to be edge cases where you do the wrong things around human capital and you still can succeed, but hopefully there's a reckoning coming.

SPEAKER_01 25:46

Like, hey, you don't is there a product for us to create a you know how they have all these wonderful Jessica created stacked, and there's a few other companies that evaluate AI tools. I'm wondering if there or HRS functions, I don't know if it's always being evaluated and it may be a pay-to-play, but the idea of like here's an AI-driven search function that is providing insight to candidates on like here's what actions X Company has taken over the past year in their hiring, firing RIF decisions, and like just use this as information when you're going out to market to get a job. Like you talk about accountability. Where is the like residual effect of Oracle laid off 30,000 people? And I bet over the next six months you'll find a job board that has posts for Oracle or Block or whatever, right? Right. So is there space for us? This is a conversation. We we're creators, Anthony. Is there a space where we build a tool using AI, which I love, that not only shares this company had this layoff over the past three years, here are their current job openings. Who's holding them accountable for that?

SPEAKER_00 27:26

Yeah, it's an interesting. So great minds as always. Um, you know, I'm a big vibe coder, and so when I have an idea, I throw it into Lovable and I start creating stuff. So I actually, to your point, um, I was like, are we holding receipts? Like, or to your point, if you're announcing layoffs due to AI, is anyone tracking any of this? So I actually vibe coded a solution.

SPEAKER_01 27:53

You already did it.

SPEAKER_00 27:54

Well, it's for me only. Um, because I don't, you know, I as a head of HR, I give them credit. The gangster is that glass door, you know, um, but you know, they would allow fraudulent claims on companies, but it served its purpose, right? Like it was in a lot of cases, um, you know, some of the insights that those those posts would provide are true. Like, hey, you know, we really need to have better management or better benefits, or and some of it was completely false. And you know, Glassdoor, you would have to pay them to be able to respond or do certain things. So, like, I I don't, I I would, you know, my my view on all of this is like it's almost like a Ted Lasso, like whoever produces Ted Lasso and writes for shrinking, like it's a pot, like can we create positive change? Like, how can I I don't want to hold receipts? Um, but what I've done, and and you'll see here if I can uh I'll try to do what you did. Um, let's see. So, yeah, here it is. So, what this does, and you can see it's still scanning, but it'll look at AI layoff trackers. So it'll scan the internet and say who has listed any layoffs um using um the excuse of AI. And what it does is it tracks, it scrapes all the news and it it pulls it in by by month and reason category. So we have AI-driven efficiency, budget reallocation, all and restructuring is another thing. How many companies, and again, this is not, it's still scraping, and it's not like a full breadth of and because it it's only scraping news articles, like whoever posts, but you can see to your point, right? Like, look, technology, e-commerce, like those are the main, and you can see here, here's our friends at Snap pulling up, like, and it gives you the source of where it is, the data cut, what the reason was. So definitely um, you know, thinking about this uh and and vibe coding a solution, but trying to figure out like, hey, fire, fire, there, there it is, the emoji. But um, again, this is just for me. I don't I don't want to push anything like this out publicly. Um, again, I just wanted to know one, can I do something like this and can I vibe code something and would it work and would it scrape? But um, but definitely in that same vein, like, you know, what are we tracking this stuff? And then to your point, like if someone posts a job, maybe you should be warned. Like, hey, last time, like uh Klarna came out, and I think it was a mistake on their part to be like, hey, we're firing all these people because of AI, and then they hired people back. I'd be like, again, unless unless I really needed that job and I had no other choice, you know, you you have to sacrifice because you have to create financial stability for your family. Sure. I'd be like, I don't know if I'd go work for them.

SPEAKER_01 30:58

I have a sense based on my students and my exposure to the you know, late teen, early 20 population that and have a sense of faith that there is going to be a bit of reckoning, that the social, the level of social responsibility, the level of um honestly it's not but just right and wrong. Like there's a there is a sense in my students for sure of like the questions about AI. What is what the ethical the um the ethics of AI, the responsible use, how companies are using it. And so I'm I'm curious if there will be I think as always, there's a push and then a pullback, right?

SPEAKER_00 31:52

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 31:53

And what's both exciting and scary is that if more companies play follow the leader and look at the every comp most of those companies you listed are very well known, popular, well regarded in terms of size, scale, they're they're the ones that have, you know, on LinkedIn X and you know, AWS, X block, whatever. Those companies um are followed by a lot of CEOs that are gonna say, hey, maybe that's something, but maybe there's a there's a fire spark of hope that that at the end of the day, the the efforts and work of diligent HR leaders all over the place saying, wait a minute, wait a minute, what are we maybe maybe the opposite of an AI tracker is what companies aren't doing this?

SPEAKER_00 32:55

So to your point, like what you know, there is um, I subscribe and I'm a big fan of a company called Just Capital, and they do a lot of work, you know, sort of connecting social responsibility to business results, uh, almost like irrational capital does for human capital. And, you know, what if we just profiled, like, you know, we're we're seeing in the media in my LinkedIn, I would love to see in my LinkedIn news, like, hey, Acme Co or AcmeCo.ai, um, you know, uh is not is hiring there, you know, they're balancing AI and humans in there, and and just capital actually profiles a lot of companies, and it just doesn't get the same coverage that it does if you're like firing people for AI. Like and to your point, there's probably thousands and tens of thousands of companies that are like, hey, I I still believe in the human connection. We're kind of dabbling with AI, and we think it's you know, it's like my shirt says here look, it's it's robots and coffee and people. Like that's the final equation.

SPEAKER_01 34:00

I love that idea. I think what we do, because here's what uh a quote that my my former CEO at News Corp used to say, because he stole it from I can't remember the movie with Alec Baldwin, but he did steal it. No, it's from um The Grinch. Uh uh, I it doesn't matter. Um, but the idea of being like, if I owned this or if we led this and we do, we can do whatever we want. Maybe with our 10 listeners so far, we can have an impact. Yay, 10. I think last time we looked, it was 19 downloads. So woo, we're out of there.

SPEAKER_00 34:38

There you go, a hundred percent increase in listenership.

SPEAKER_01 34:43

That's right. But maybe that's something that we do. Maybe our next conversation is really harnessed around what are the ways that teams are doing this well, what are the success stories that, you know, I've got a great success story from um a woman who used to work on my team back at uh News Corp. I hired her when she was literally, it was, I think, her second year out of college to be on my HR team as a trainer. She's gone on to work for some of the greatest SaaS, uh, most visible SaaS companies, um, CHRO roles. And she's got such a an amazing story of implementation after a problem. Um, I shared it on LinkedIn, and I'd love to talk about that or Bridgewater working with them and the impact that that has had on their on their team to just not again the middle ground. It's coffee, human, and technology together, where they are leveraging it to be to find open doors to connection within their organization. And we can make a choice through this podcast to talk about whatever the fuck we want. And so maybe ours is let's talk about the stories that are successes and impact on the future of work and give less time, energy, effort, and anxiety to the companies that aren't doing it right.

SPEAKER_00 36:10

Yeah, I I think we'll have to do some deep research because if I look at my Netflix, um, sorry, my LinkedIn news feed, it is, yeah, it's more about the negative than it is the positive. So I love that, you know, Deloitte cutting back benefits for certain staffers. I don't know if you saw that one. Like, hey, we're, you know, we're gonna all you people in the back office, we don't value you, so we're gonna cut your like and they're a great. I work closely with Deloitte with the Ella project, and they were they're an awesome company, like they are really a caring, and I think they're even in like the top five every year in terms of like caring or people focused companies, but I'm like, ooh, is that the right choice? Anyway, that's maybe for next time.

SPEAKER_01 36:52

But yeah, I love the idea of maybe next time we're talking about positives, positives.

SPEAKER_00 36:57

I love positive breaking news.

SPEAKER_01 37:00

What I would if, and if we're talking about those challenge situations, I think what I'd love to be able to do is if there's anybody in our like I'd love to, I think it's just a lack of understanding. You hear the the sound bite and you say, gosh, that's terrible. Um there's a sound bite out right now having nothing to do with AI the future work, it has to do with men and women and a CNN article. And there's a big CNN article out right now, and there's a lot of women responding to it. And I'm not gonna talk about what it is, but there's a reality that if you do a little bit of research, they're claiming that 62 million men viewed something. But when you really look at the full details, it's actually much less. There was a lot of viewership on a site, but about a thousand that viewed this very problematic, awful, terrible site. But I I think there's an important perspective, maybe it's my journalism background, that's what I graduated in, is like a truth in broadcasting, right? Like where we have to, I want to get a better understanding of why Deloitte would do that. What's the impetus behind saying that certain roles don't deserve to have certain benefits? And then you've got companies like uh my good friends at Compt who do so much to try to understand that people are at different spaces in their life and they have different needs. And I think there's this war of offering bespoke services and helping people be viewed as individuals and then like making mass decisions across the board that feel really destructive.

SPEAKER_00 38:42

Yeah. And I think you'll you'll find when you double-click on all of these things, there are frameworks to which all of these things either have restrictions or guidance, especially around benefits, right? Like it's all or nothing. You have to like you have to have equitable benefits in a lot of cases where you would really the the benefit around benefits is to customize and personalize because the value of certain benefits when you're younger for the most part are different than when you're older, right? So why wouldn't you be able to almost like DJ board benefits? Like, hey, we're, you know, like we'll still offer a la carte, but instead it's like, no, no, no, no. The laws are you have to offer this package and this format. Like it's so you'll I think, and and the same thing around why companies make decisions, it's the framework. I am going to get a short-term boost on you know, my earnings, on everything else. And so I never blame the people. Um, you know, you blame the frameworks, but you know, to your point, can we identify the folks that are looking at the framework and going, hey, that's not gonna do well for me long term? And so I'm gonna buck what's happening.

SPEAKER_01 39:53

Yeah, yeah. Well, another boom, boom, mic drop. They don't have a mic out here. I want to do a mic drop.

SPEAKER_00 40:03

Well, they have like noises too. Wait, some drums. Can I drop drums? Or I don't know what the hell that was.

SPEAKER_01 40:09

Here, I'm gonna try to make a mic. Mic. This is this is a slow end to a massively thoughtful. It's a mic raise it. So we are still on. We thank you for for joining us this episode. And this is what we are like it's two for talking about the world of work. And I think as anybody who's in HR or in leadership, these are these are important things we want to understand. And so I appreciate you taking the time, Anthony, with me and talking about these things that sometimes feel both not thought through well. And at the same time, like there's so much deep thinking on so many different topics that um it can become very overwhelming for anybody who's in an HR role having to try to navigate through this in their day-to-day.

SPEAKER_00 41:03

So absolutely. And instead of commenting back on your comment, I'm just gonna fist pump you. There we go.

SPEAKER_01 41:13

All right, done till next time.

SPEAKER_00 41:16

Cool. All right, good combo. Great stuff. See, I told you we'd kill this.

SPEAKER_01 41:20

We always kill. I love our conversation.