Episode 5: Who's Driving the Bus?

Coinbase did it. So did Snap, Dorsey, and a New York HR leader who fired every manager by text. Theresa Fesinstine and Anthony Onesto take on the "kill the managers" trend sweeping AI-era companies, and ask the question nobody seems to: if the managers are gone, who's actually steering?

The pitch is that everyone becomes a "player coach." Anthony's response: when were these managers ever coaches? From there the two get into why coaching is genuinely hard, what fresh assessment data says about how little AI literacy most people actually have, and how even seasoned practitioners get swept up in the layoff panic. Plus the Savannah Bananas, fan-owned airlines, and why betting your whole livelihood on one paycheck might be the riskiest move of all.

In this episode, we discuss:
 No More Managers?: The trend at Coinbase and beyond, the HR leader who eliminated every manager overnight, and why "player coach" assumes a skill most managers were never taught.
 The Gap Nobody Admits: Data from 700+ people showing most are using AI with very little literacy, and why that makes "just remove the layer of management" a dangerous bet.
 Caught in the Hype: How the layoff narrative pulls everyone in, what the numbers actually show across industries, and where the real hiring is happening.
 Betting on Yourself: The Savannah Bananas, fan-owned teams, and the case for becoming a polypreneur instead of trusting a single employer.

Timestamps (Chapters)
 00:00 - Welcome Back
 00:36 - "No More Managers": Coinbase and a Chatham House Confession
 04:31 - When Were Managers Ever Coaches?
 06:05 - Directive vs. Socratic: What Good Coaching Looks Like
 10:25 - Who's Driving the Bus? The AI Fluency Gap Nobody Admits
 12:34 - The Data: Middle Management Down 12%, Spans Stretched Thin
 15:53 - When "Just Execute It" Lands on a Junior HR Desk
 17:28 - Caught in the Layoff Hype Cycle
 21:57 - Where's the Good News? Automotive Hiring and the Savannah Bananas
 25:06 - Fan-Owned Teams and the Case Against Investor Money
 27:47 - The Polypreneur: Why One Paycheck Is a Risk
 32:18 - Are Giant Companies a Relic? GE vs. Google vs. Instagram

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:11

Um, we are back. Anthony, it's great to see you again here on Breaking Views.

SPEAKER_00 0:16

Welcome, welcome. Yeah, good to see you. No desert trips this week for you.

SPEAKER_01 0:21

No desert trips.

SPEAKER_00 0:22

Stay local.

SPEAKER_01 0:24

Only news in the need to know. Like things are happening. Fun, the weather's getting better. It's, you know.

SPEAKER_00 0:31

Yeah, New York. New York, the one day is spring. I love it.

SPEAKER_01 0:35

That one day could not be nicer, but it's actually really nice out here in the burbs in Connecticut. And so uh, so what is tickling your news fancy right now? Things that you want to talk about.

SPEAKER_00 0:47

So there that it's interesting. There was um one of the LinkedIn, as everyone knows, this is the breaking views, right? So we take some of the LinkedIn and and we try to create some of uh what we're seeing in the news uh into evergreen conversation. So even if you're listening to this uh, you know, week, two weeks, three weeks later, it's still very relevant. But um, it's interesting because I was part of a conversation in New York through a very cool networking group that if they sponsored us, I would name, but I'm not going to name right now. But very cool, one of the you know, like premier level content communities that are built um here in New York, but they've been a little hint to them, they were acquired. So, but really awesome sort of HR content. So we were in this group, it's Chatham House Rules. So I can't say who it was, but one of the heads of HR had just eliminated all managers. All managers, god, like you know, text message, you're fired, all managers, and their whole premise is like no more managers. And so what what I'm what what we're talking about today, particularly with LinkedIn, is this idea of pure managers. This uh the title is Pure Managers Are Increasingly at Risk in the Age of AI. And basically, uh, I'll just read it from here. AI is reshaping the manager's job description and in some cases eliminating it entirely, like my example. Uh, and it specifically talks about Coinbase, who here we are again, another company that's laying off folks, um, where their CEO, Brian Armstrong, declared that there will be no longer pure quote unquote managers um at the company. Uh, you know, we've seen this with Jack Dorsey, Snaps, uh, Evan Spiegel. They're all these companies are pushing towards leaner AI-powered teams where managers are player coaches. And I know you and I have talked about it. So love your thoughts. Like, what are you like? I don't know where I sit on this thing. I I even I wrote a blog post about this idea of a no-manager future. But what are your what are your thoughts here?

SPEAKER_02 2:59

Like, good idea, bad idea.

SPEAKER_01 3:04

Uh, it's it like I feel like this is a moment where if I had any training in improv, it would come into play because I want to be like yes and I want to yes and what this looks like. First of all, I I this context of player coach is really fascinating to me, both somebody like it's so confusing, right? This, like, I'm playing the game, but I'm also coaching everybody around me, and we're all player coaches, and that presumes that everybody has a solid uh capability to be both a player and a coach. And oftentimes I I do find that one of the things that I think makes this concept attractive is that companies struggle with their managers, with their ability to do dig into the actual managing real work. I know I worked with uh an organization for a long time in my career, and we always talk very openly about what is like your breakdown of time spent doing actual management work versus actually doing the job. And I don't think that concept really got drilled into most organizations. This idea where we're promoting people because they have do really great in their current role doesn't necessarily make everybody great for the managerial role. So, you know, I think that there's that piece of it, and then there's the piece of like, what is the AI impact of teams? Right. And and is everybody like player coaching themselves and then just their AIs?

SPEAKER_00 4:42

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 4:43

Oh, it's it's really puzzling.

SPEAKER_00 4:45

It's it's interesting. Like as you were talking, um, and and and we're introducing this concept of player coach, I'm like, when were they coaches? Like in most of my career in startups, dealing with managers, nine times out of ten, they were players. And and the struggle I had as head of HR was they were not coaches. They weren't, it's not instinctively, they weren't, you know, and I'm not saying all of them. There were, I've worked with some really good leaders that were just instinctively good human beings, good leaders, good coaches. Well, good good humans. Yeah, I I think most if you did a broad stroke across most businesses, you would coaching is a struggle. What's that?

SPEAKER_01 5:30

I love the backtrack. It was like they were good people, they were good leaders, they were good coaches. Well, they were good.

SPEAKER_00 5:37

They were good people. Yeah, no, they they were terrible coaches. Coaching's hard. Like coaching is is difficult.

SPEAKER_01 5:46

Um and so for me, it's like I'm gonna interrupt you for a quick second.

SPEAKER_00 5:50

Yeah, please.

SPEAKER_01 5:52

In your experience, if you had to give a shout out to somebody that really demonstrated strong coaching acumen, who would that be and what did they what did they teach you or impart to you that you feel has been instrumental in your own role as a coach?

SPEAKER_00 6:16

Oh silent pause of no one comes to mind. Uh I listen, I thought just putting me on the spot there. I have no one to offer you. No. Um I mean, I I had early on in my career, I think I talked about this Swiss Army knife of advisors, Vinny Stabil, RD Nathan. I think one, and and that's you know, they weren't my direct bosses, but they were great coaches. And I think they were because that structure was in place, they could be, because they, you know, but I think they had lack of context because they were hearing everything from me and didn't really know what was going on. But I think they were incredible coaches because they would ask questions. Like they, a good coach, and and I did, I I I'm actually certified in uh neuroscience leadership uh via Brett Andretta, who um who was the CLO of LinkedIn Learning and Lynda.com. She has her own thing now, and it's based on neuroscience. And she talks about coaching in two elements. One is when you have to be directive coaching, like you, you the person on the other side doesn't know the answer, and it's okay to give them the answer. You have to be like, here is what you need to do, but it's based on their experience, their levels, and and what they're good at. And then there is more of um like just coaching where you're asking questions and you're trying to get them to the answer. So I think those two individuals were really good at not directive coaching, not like here, Anthony. Like, I've I've I've built the wind resort and I know the answer to your question, but let me help you get to that answer. I think that's what makes a good coach. Um, and and again, I it's most of the time when I dealt with leadership, most leaders were very comfortable in directive coaching. Like, I'm gonna give you the answer. And it would mind when I did this training and I had one leader, she's like, I don't even understand what you're saying. I'm like, well, you can't give them the answer. Like you you basically have to ask them questions to get them to their own answer. And it was like I was talking a different language, like she could not understand. So I I it's fascinating to me, like this player coach thing. When when when were they coaches? Like, when were these folks coaches?

SPEAKER_01 8:32

Interesting because what you just described is a very like Socratic way of coaching, right? Like people to their own conclusion. And I think for me, I always took because my career started in LD. So I was training salespeople from the time I was 24 years old. And that was my first big group. And then I moved to New York and was training in a sales organization for 10 years before I moved, or seven years before I moved into generalist HR work. And so I think a lot of that process of facilitation informed the way that I manage. And I think that made me both a or coach, and I think that made me, you know, if you read any of my LinkedIn recommendations from people that have worked with me in the past, they sound a lot like she's really tough, but she's really supportive. And like I learned more working under her than anybody else because of that. Like, I'm not gonna give you a pass and I'm not gonna give you the answer. And I bet that the way you described it, people really got irritated with me because I'd be like, Well, walk me through what you how you would do that. And it's not like sometimes, sometimes you just want the fuck, you know, the easy answer.

SPEAKER_00 9:40

You want like just tell me what's a freaking you can curse, you can curse on our podcast. Well, it's like Billy Madison is like, just give me the answer.

SPEAKER_01 9:48

Like well, it's ironic because later, a few years after I left that job and a few other jobs, I was considering doing coaching, like getting IFC certified and uh or ICF certified. And ASAP. Yeah, part of the biggest challenge I had was, you know, I sat in on a coaching call, and the whole time I was just like, just tell her, like just tell her what to do. This like silent waiting for like you to figure it out. If she was gonna figure it out, she'd have figured it out. Like right.

SPEAKER_00 10:22

Well, that's because we're New Yorkers. We don't like that that silence, you know, like we can't sit in silence, we have to fill it. At least I do.

SPEAKER_01 10:31

I just tried for a minute.

SPEAKER_02 10:33

See, you you're good. You're that was really good.

SPEAKER_01 10:36

But I so I I and I think this idea of like now we're going to have, first of all, the the hill that I'm gonna die on, if you will, is this idea that we're all at this same level of insight exposure experience to AI. Like it's just a little data. So I, as people listening probably know, I created a fluency assessment, spent a lot of time thinking about behavioral approaches to change and uh functional use of AI. It's based on different criteria. And there are over 700 people that have taken it in a three and a half month period. 53% are still at the explorer stage. And that's from people all over the country and some people globally. I have people from oh my gosh, Germany, France, Israel, all sorts of places that have taken this assessment. And across the board, it's very clear that people are practically using it, but very low in AI actual literacy. And so this idea, I I share that because this idea that now we're going to, you know, flip a switch and now every all managers are gone. I don't know who's dri I don't know who's who's driving the bus. And do we trust the drivers of the bus?

SPEAKER_00 12:05

Like it sounds like the driver got fired.

SPEAKER_01 12:11

Have you seen that? Um, speaking of you know, autopilot, have you seen some of those uh videos of like the um the Tesla self-driving cars that are like taxis and stuff and they all just get caught up in a log jam of like back up and go forward? I mean, yes. Is that where organizations are gonna be left?

SPEAKER_00 12:34

So I have to imagine.

SPEAKER_01 12:37

If that's the question, what's what's a recommendation or a solution that if somebody were coming for guidance, what would you say?

SPEAKER_00 12:45

Don't be stupid. Uh um yeah, I it's hard for me. Uh I mean, if you look at the stats, I mean, it's already happening. Middle manager jobs dropped 12% in 2025. Um, you know, there was uh the amount of direct reports when I think it was Gallup who said, you know, increase from 10.9 to 12.1. And I think you and I both know like we would always recommend seven to eight direct reports for any manager. Because again, see above, a lot of times they go into execution mode. And and listen, I want to be caught, like I want to, there's a lot of grace. Like, I think middle managers, you win and die as a company through middle management. I really, really do believe that. And it's always made fun of in the movies and office space and all these other things. But it's one of the toughest jobs next to HR, I believe, in an organization. Like you are responsible for reporting up and sideways, and you're responsible for your team and and and it and the humans are complex and unpredictable. And then you, you know, you not only have to manage people, you're managing the execution, you're managing up customers. Like, what an incredibly important job in in a company now. Can AI help? Absolutely. Like, in fact, at 15.5, we're working on some some stuff now that's being released, released in June, where we're gonna we're we're developing an agent for managers, and and you know, it scrapes across all your different systems. And you know, I kind of been saying it makes the invisible visible, that kind of stuff. And it's not a 15-5 commercial, but I think there's an opportunity to make bring information at scale that's not easily accessible, not easily identifiable to managers to help them not only manage better, but execute better. So I think the answer here, again, it will always my answer will be like the sweatshirt I have, grab some coffee, grab a machine or a robot, and grab a human. And that's the answer. Like it's it's not one or the other. And I think we're seeing, and there was someone that posted on LinkedIn, I wish I can give her credit. She was talking to an HR person that did kind of like this HR leader did in this Chatham House conversation where they eliminated middle managers, and that person just quit because it's chaos. Because again, you can't just go, hey, no more middle man. Like, there's like there's so much nuance and human capital knowledge that they have that maybe hasn't been documented to basically say, hey, we're gonna wave a wand and get rid of them. I think that's just very that's dumb. I think it's a bad idea.

SPEAKER_01 15:25

Yeah, yeah, agreed. Check mate.

SPEAKER_00 15:29

Check. Done. Yeah. I mean, I listen, it all comes down to like again, it's it's the it's humans and machines. Like that's the that's the end equation, no, no doubt. Um, but you know, companies are gonna do what they do. And and and I was just talking to someone in the investment space, and you know, it's top line, bottom line. And oftentimes the bottom line is the easy part. It's easy. All right, we're gonna get rid of all our managers. And geez, what an incredible payroll save that's gonna be for your organization.

SPEAKER_01 16:04

You know what that brings up for me, Anthony, is I think in a lot of these spaces, I'm not talking about huge enterprise level organizations, but the the challenge maybe in the smaller organizations that see activity like this happen, go to their, you know, their person that they hired as your director of HR, who maybe has four to five years of experience in HR and says, like, here, this is this is something we're going to to implement and I need you to execute it. And they're like following orders without the confidence or the understanding to say, okay, I've seen big decisions made in haste lead to dramatically terrible results. We we can't do this. You know, let's formulate a strategy for what we're trying to get like, and I think it's that piece. Like, what are we trying to get to? Is it just bottom line numbers? Is it like, you know, just we need to reduce dollars on payroll and benefits, and so we're just gonna scrap people? And we talked about this before. This, like, hey, well, you certainly can do that. As I I like to say, you can have anything you want, but you just might not be able to have it here. Like you can have that, but then there's nobody to purchase, there's nobody with the income. And we can get into this as a second conversation. But this commentary in my feed now, which I think is probably in years too about layoffs being down from early 25, which seems shocking to me if that's true based on everything we're hearing.

SPEAKER_00 17:39

Yeah. I think it's also in in just sort of putting a bow on the manager conversation. I think I think there's a couple elements. One, as I was talking with this, you know, this investment group, it, you know, it's easy. It's easy to cut, it's like it's one of the things you can control for almost a hundred percent. So what I mean by that is if you have 10 managers, you can fire 10 managers and and all of a sudden your payroll costs decrease. Like that is an immediate control you have as an organization. You cannot control as much as you know, with all the AI tools and the amount of of um data science that goes into it, you don't know revenue is unpredictable. Like you, you know, you're you're you're in supply chain and they're you know, missiles get lopped off to Iran and now you're you don't have supply chain capabilities or gas goes up and now you're you know an airline and you're going out of business. Not that that's the reason they went out of business, they've been in struggling for a while, but like it's too variable. So it's easy. Uh and and when it's easy, it's that's what you go for at first, versus hey, if what if AI can create more efficiency, greater output, like all these other things, not replace, but make us better at all these things. Now it's a different conversation, but it is what if? Like I know right now I can reduce headcount. I can do that. I can tomorrow I can I can fire people, and and that's it, it's finite. Where like the other thing I'm taking a gamble on. So anyway, and that goes to the layoffs, right? Like you're you're you you just said we're just seeing that in a bubble, right? Like you and I are in the tech space, we're we're highly uh leveraged in that space. And so all we're seeing is layoffs, and and and that has been the biggest area where layoffs have not gone down, they've actually gone up. So it's this weird dynamic when you're in this bubble that you're like, oh, the world is ending. But then you go to healthcare and they're up and they can't find people and they're struggling with talent. So it's like it's it's interesting to see like these these numbers and and and see all of these things and just realize, like, especially with something like that that comes out that says, you know, everything actually is down, layoffs are down, except for the area that you work in. Um, so I don't know. What are your thoughts about these these layoffs and all this the other industries that are out there?

SPEAKER_01 20:14

I I think I think you're right that it's easy, and I kind of just fell victim to that myself of like, oh my gosh, what's happening? And you know how can they say that the numbers are lower than last year when all we seem to be hearing about is the numbers, the numbers, the numbers. 4,000 people here, 30,000 people here combined, 15,000 people here. And it just feels very it feels like I got caught up in my own media hype cycle when what I do often is talk shit about other hype cycles. That I think there are, you know, I've talked about like AI hype cycles around every three months, it's about the environment, then it's about hallucinations, then it's about self-harm that people have done. And there are these moments that are captured that are just exacerbated by, you know, the media engine and social media. And I think I just got caught up in that. Like I I haven't, and I need to, but I haven't taken a real look at like what are things across the board. Um it just feels like we don't, and this is more about breaking news and news stories, but it seems like there's this intention or you know, lack of where's the good story? Where's the positive story? Where's the thing that's going well? Where's the thing that people are excited about? I mean, it's just like and I don't mean for this to be like a downer thing, because I think there are so many, you know. Things that are happening on individual levels that are really positive things, but you just like you just never hear about them.

SPEAKER_00 22:08

Yeah, it's interesting. I mean, they, you know, in this in this report that they shared, it's, you know, most industries, you know, in tech mostly leading, um, are using AI as an excuse, which I know we talked about last time, so we don't need to rehash that. But you know, there are some, you know, the interesting thing that I read in that report is where is the good news? Like what is what industries are hiring? And they say automotive actually leads all industries with about 12,000 hiring plans, and it more than doubled that announcement uh through April 2025. So, so automotive, like who would have who would have thought that would be leading? Entertainment and leisure is second, uh, even though it's down from from last year, but um aerospace and government and all this, you know, like it's just interesting to see how this kind of just this movement in the job market and the signals that it it represents. Um, you know, like and you would imagine like technology being the first to think about the replacement of of human beings uh with AI. Um there was there was an interesting, so um um uh Simon Sinek, obviously, a lot of people know, you know, very famous for the why conversation. He was interviewing the CEO and founder of the uh uh Savannah Bananas, the baseball team that you know askews baseball uh to people like me who think baseball is just really dreadfully boring. And um and it's just this entertainment element. And he was asking him, like, like they went, it's a great, it's a it's on uh Simon Sinek's podcast, and it's a great interview. Um, and he's like, the only reason I could do what I do is that I'm not taking any investment money. And he basically said that their goals aren't my goals. He's trying to create a a fans first experience. He's trying to create all these elements by keeping tickets down and all this sort of stuff. And the only thing the only reason he could do that is because he doesn't have a board or investors saying, you know, you got to maximize profits or you have to do things a little bit differently. And I and I just wonder like, you know, is there a world where you know that's a dying breed? Like there, there is very rare, like he talks about sitting on uh uh inflatable beds and and you know going and shopping for food $26 a week. So they he and his wife were struggling to get this thing started. Now it's a juggernaut. They my family and I, we went to Yankee Stadium uh uh last week and we won and the stadium was packed full. Um, and I haven't seen that since postseason Yankee baseball. So um it's just this this juggernaut, but he's got that freedom that he can make these decisions without any of these investors. And I wonder like, is there a turn some at some point where you could just start a company, you know, get a loan from a bank and not take VC or private equity money to run something? I don't know. There's something there was just so pure about that.

SPEAKER_01 25:17

There's an interesting, well, I think that right now we're a week out, maybe, maybe not even a full week out from the announcement of Spirit Airlines going out of business, right? And now there's this huge kind of groundswell initiative to have you know user owners of Spirit and have the general public purchase shares and and own an airline. And I think there's gross.

SPEAKER_00 25:45

Does that get me like front seat? Does that get me like group one seating? I'm in.

SPEAKER_01 25:50

It's get the CEO of uh front seat.

SPEAKER_00 25:54

It's not a good business to own, but I'll take that. I'll take front seat.

SPEAKER_01 25:58

Well, it's interesting because I grew up in Wisconsin, obviously, Green Bay Packers, Green Bay Packers, speaking of sports teams, Green Bay Packers is a town-owned team, right? It's about what's happening with within the town and having representatives of the town make decisions for the team. And and I think there is something really lovely, and I'm partial, I own my own business. I frequently, this is not a brag, but I don't even understand what they're thinking. Like, I get emails from people all the time that are like, we know people that are in this field that are looking at businesses like yours. Would you be interested? And I'm like, I don't have any interest in reporting. That's why I'm doing this in the first place. Like, I'm not sure anybody else.

SPEAKER_00 26:41

I I just wonder if, like, is that the few you know, like again, I I think there has been this glorification. That's why you you know, you look at the press releases, it's anytime you raise money. I know even when I was with Susie, we, you know, Kevin Durant, the basketball player, his fun putting money, and it was more about you know, using Kevin Durant's name than the amount. I mean, like for Kevin Durant, it was a rounding error, but for us, it was like, you know, oh look, we raised money from Kevin Durant. Like it, there's a validation there. And and you see a lot of that, like that's and and when people announce it, it's like, congratulations, congratulations. It's all these things, and it's hard work. You know, like I was on the due diligence team and and the fundraising teams for a lot of companies, and it's just like it's a lot of work to pull these all these things together and all the documents, and you put them into this this uh digital locker room where they can look at all this stuff, and it's just it's a lot of work and distracting um element of it. And I wonder if there's just this space where we we start to see more and more people going independent and not taking money. I just wonder like the is this is that dying, as Simon said, or is it is it a new way of thinking? I don't know, and maybe that changes the dynamic of these companies.

SPEAKER_01 27:58

Yeah. I you know, I I think it's all rests around the privilege that people have in order to do that, you know. Like I couldn't do I couldn't have started my business if I was a single person. Uh probably could have, just because I worked for 25 years and had money that I could pull from in savings or in retirement or whatever. But you know, recognizing that that's not an option for a lot of people, like you said, are you living on $26 a week for food? That's you gotta live in some very specific places in order to make that work. You know, yeah, Ron and in the city ain't gonna get you a full week's worth of food for twenty-six dollars. So I I do think that there's this it it's interesting, it circles back to the conversation around like who's gonna be the consumer of all of these companies if people don't have the income to support, you know, discretion if they don't have discretionary income. Um you know, I one of my I was telling you about my students uh as they're I teach at university, they have a final project, and one of them is is doing uh uh an app on adulting, and part of it is like, here's what the average income is for this role, here's what the job market looks like for this role, here's what the national job market looks like, and it's it's a stark picture. It's not, you know, it's it's a rough picture. So I the idea of I'm gonna kind of put my spin on it to say that if you are listening to this right now and you are relying on a single organization to support your livelihood, I'd highly recommend you find something that is a parallel or multiple parallel paths. I'm a big fan. I I have the domain of what do I call it, poly herpreneur or something, polypreneur or like women who have like poly uh multiple sources of income. No word, yeah, coming coming up and growing up, if would I have thought 20 years ago that I'd never need like, oh well, I'm gonna have this role and this role and have this income and this income. No, but the world is very different right now. And the reliance on even a 401k or social security, you know, having multiple streams of income is really important, even if it's just something that if a layoff happens, if an emergency happens, you have something else that you can grab on to.

SPEAKER_00 30:52

Yeah. Yeah, I think it's you know, it's any any you know, investment advisor will tell you to to uh diversify, right? And it's the one place and and that's you know, again, it's the frameworks we grew up with. It's the framework of working for one company. My dad, I tell the story a lot. He worked for the New York Times, and then towards the end of his career, they made him reapply for his job and forced him into retirement. And that was the thank you for that you know, they gave him for working and dedicating his whole life there. And again, it's a very different structure. And we can go back to arguably sort of the short-term thinking in the 70s and 80s uh and the and the incentives and all this thing. But to circle it back with like layoffs and managers, it's like, is this, you know, is it is it better to have the Savannah Banana type of growth where it took longer, it, you know, you you cut your teeth, and it wasn't an immediate, like he talks about struggling and selling tickets for the first couple of years. And now it's like you can't, he's got a four or five-year wait list. He's got, you know, uh 4.2 million people on the wait list for games. I think he said he has over like hundreds of thousands of people waiting for jobs. Like he has a wait, like that's a what a what a great story that is. And he's making money and he's selling out stadiums. I'm like, yeah, like what maybe there's a there there. Maybe that's the new template, not necessarily a dying breed, but I I kind of hope so. I don't know if he would fire his middle managers. He probably sees them as incredibly valuable.

SPEAKER_01 32:29

Sure, sure. Two questions. Number one, you said your dad worked for the Times.

SPEAKER_02 32:34

Yes.

SPEAKER_01 32:35

What did your dad do for the Times? I didn't know that.

SPEAKER_02 32:38

He was a controller.

SPEAKER_01 32:39

Okay, my father-in-law worked for the Times for his entire career.

SPEAKER_00 32:44

Ah, he said Ernie Onesto, ask him if he knows.

SPEAKER_01 32:48

Oh, I will, I will. Second of all, is this idea of you know, would the the super size global business of a hundred and eighty thousand employees? You know, is that just going to be a relic of the past at some point where it is more about the skill or functional support that smaller connected teams have the ability to deliver through like you know, some of the functionality of AI in the way that we've talked about it. I really hope so. It would be a nice, it would be a nice future.

SPEAKER_00 33:38

I think so. I think we saw I I wrote an I think I wrote an article on this, not necessarily in in the AI blog, but on LinkedIn before I had AI and HR. And I looked at the organizational structures of like GE, hundreds of thousands of global employees, and then Google, you know, almost quadruple the revenue and value of GE and having much less employee base. And then I think I went as far as like Instagram, which sold for you know billions of dollars, um, that had, I think on their books, 20 people. So I think there is, I mean, the part of this is you could probably start a company now and build with some agents and other things and not have a a massive of human capital and and be successful. I don't know if you get to extreme revenue numbers without people, but there's definitely a a world and like if you think of that positioning to any VC, wow, we don't, you know, we don't need people to make, you know, like it's it's a dream, it's a dream situation, right? So um, but I I I believe so. No complaints, yeah. No complaints. Uh I don't need HR. I can I I also see HR becoming fractional. So you'll buy pieces of Anthony or Teresa over time. So I I definitely see that as a future. I just don't know. I still, because I read a lot of pessimists in AI, um, I I just it's not there yet. Like as much as people talk about, you know, like one of the things that that's so fascinating to me is the snake oil of people on LinkedIn are like, hi, Vaughn, I've created a whole marketing department with AI. And I I have no one, I hired no one. I'm like, oh, there's no like I just tried to have Claude look at my, you know, my my LinkedIn and I got some interesting feedback. There's no way you're automating your entire marketing department. There's no way. So I think there's a middle ground here, but I I do. I think people are gonna start companies. You listen, your students, you said they were starting companies, they put stuff on lovable and they're building organizations around it. Like I love that idea of this, you know, adulting kind of app. Um, that's a great idea. Um, it's a it fills in a gap. And one person with lovable, you know, built a MVP and potentially a real business. So um I think, yeah, I think that is the future.

SPEAKER_01 36:10

And I and I look at my students, and that's their that for the majority of them, while they might be taking an entry-level analyst role upon graduation, every single uh all of my 63 students that I have this semester, every single one of them raised their hand when it was like, do you envision yourself at some at some point owning your own business? And I don't think it was because of like a peer pressure. I think it was the ability to build and their creative, their exposure to that is so much different, you know?

unknown 36:45

Yeah.

SPEAKER_01 36:45

Well, Anthony, this has been a delight and a pleasure as always. A great time on the breaking views. And I look forward to our next conversation and seeing what's in the news.